Jenny Aguirre: 0:05

Hello, this is Ever Wonder from the California Science Center. I'm Jenny Aguirre. Horror movies? Roller coasters? Bungee jumping? Why do we sometimes enjoy the things that scare us? In this episode, we chat with Arash Javanbakht, a leading psychiatrist and neuroscientist at Wayne State University, who explains to us how fear can be treated and even be used as a motivator. Arash gives us insight into how fear and anxiety can actually work for us, the reasons behind fear, and even tackles the question of why we sometimes enjoy being frightened. Ever wonder why we like to be scared? On today's episode, we learned that fear and anxiety are both emotions that are ingrained in our genetics going all the way back to the first humans. And for those traumatic experiences where fear gets the best of us, Arash shows us how exposure therapy through augmented reality can be a great form of treatment. Okay, Dr. Arash Javanbakht, director of S.T.A.R.C and author of Afraid, Understanding the Purpose of Fear and Harnessing the Power of Anxiety. Thank you so much for joining us on today's podcast, for Ever Wonder.

Arash Javanbakht: 1:10

Thanks for having me.

Jenny Aguirre: 1:12

Arash, first of all, can you please tell us a little bit about yourself to get started?

Arash Javanbakht: 1:17

Of course, I'm a psychiatrist and neuroscientist at Wayne State University. I run the Stress, Trauma, and Anxiety Research Clinic, or S.T.A.R.C. I am a clinician and researcher in a clinic I work with people with all sorts of anxiety and fear-related disorders, trauma, PTSD, that includes survivors of torture, human trafficking, refugees, civilians, first responders, military personnel. And I also research what anxiety, stress, trauma do to our brains and bodies. We look at the impact of exposure to war trauma or other types of traumas in the brain, in the body, on our genes, and in inflammation. And I'm also involved in basically advancing our treatment methods. We have art and dance and movement therapies for children with trauma and PTSD. And we have very advanced mixed reality, augmented reality technologies like the technology Tony Stark was using in the Iron Man, where You wear these goggles and all these AI-motivated digital humans walk in the room and you can interact with them basically with the purpose of helping people be able to go out and function in the real world after their traumatic experiences.

Jenny Aguirre: 2:31

Is the name of your organization somehow correlated? Did you get the idea because of Tony Stark? I didn't think about that until right now.

Arash Javanbakht: 2:42

Yeah, it's very interesting that no, we are S.T.A.R.C with a C and he's Stark with a K. Stress, trauma, anxiety research clinic. But later on, turned out the names have relevance and he uses AR and we use AR as well. And actually, we have a tarantula in our clinic that we use this tarantula to see. We use augmented reality for treatment of fear of spiders. Like I put spiders in your environment, digital spiders, and you interact with them and you overcome your fears. And this tarantula is to test the effect of the treatment. Her name is Toni Starc with a C.

Jenny Aguirre: 3:18

That's funny. Can you tell us a little bit more? How does it help people with fear or anxiety?

Arash Javanbakht: 3:25

Absolutely. So we have a lot of phobias, like people can be afraid of dogs, spiders, snakes, heights, different conditions. And for a lot of these situations, the person themselves know that the fear is irrational. So talking about, okay, your fear of spiders is irrational is not going to change anything. But what works very well is what we call exposure therapy, which means the person is gradually exposed, let's say in fear of dogs, they're gradually exposed to epithelial friendly golden retriever or labrador, and the animal brain, which learns through experience, gradually develops a learning that, oh, this dog is safe and this is okay. And exposure therapy is a very good treatment and is very effective. The problem is that if someone came to my office and said they are fed of spiders, snakes, or dogs, I don't have a spider, snake, or dog in my office, right? So when I learned about this new technology, augmented reality, I mean, some people may be more aware recently because of the Apple new product, the Apple Vision Pro, which is VR and AR together about this technology. So basically you wear these goggles that are like sunglasses. So you see the real world and I can superimpose digital objects in the environment. So when I learned about it, I thought this is an amazing opportunity to treat phobias because now it allows me to show you in your real world all the objects you may be afraid of. So we started with fear of spiders and we created these spiders. So when people wear the the goggles, I see a 3D map of their environment, I can grab a spider of any kind, size, color, and put it in their environment, have the spider crawl up the walls and go on the ceiling. And we started using this in a clinical trial. I myself was amazed by the effects. Everybody we treated in this clinical trial was able to touch a real tarantula, Tony Starc, or touch the tank containing Tony in less than one hour, one session treatment, average time 40 minutes. And the effects stayed with them. Then we went to the fear of dogs. Now we have dogs and people come and basically see all these different types of dogs that we have from Rottweiler to German Shepherds. And they interact with these dogs and then they go and hug my Great Pyrenees. After the treatment, then we said, let's go to the realm of humans, which is a lot more complicated. And a lot of people, especially with post-traumatic stress disorder, trauma experiences, especially traumas perpetrated by humans, like assault, shooting, robbery, rape, war. Their brain goes to fight and flight mode and stays there. And the person is afraid of being around others. And it's debilitating to the point that I have cops and firefighters I'm treating who have PTSD because this is a highly trauma-exposed population. They're sitting at home. They're housebound. They're doing grocery shopping online. They cannot go anywhere there is public. So I thought this would be an amazing opportunity to create those environments. So now, and we worked with people actually there in California, people in the realm of industry working with Marvel and Disney, and we worked on creating realistic human interactions. So you wear the goggles, you're standing in the room you are, and I can be anywhere else. The two of us could not be even in, don't have to even be in the same place. And I see a 3D map of your environment. I establish the room and then a digital door opens on your wall and these digital humans walk in and gradually first there's one person and two and then three and then at the end we have thrown a house party or you find yourself at a grocery store or you are at a bar restaurant sports event with humans of diverse age sex race behavior outfit and we're using now this for the treatment and it really triggers people so like sometimes takes 40 minutes for a person to allow a third person be added to those two women in that corner of the room who are digital and they are talking to each other. And then we went to the realm of AI. Now these humans are AI motivated. So the first one of them is Amy who was born a couple of months ago. We wrote her brain and she's a middle-aged teacher married with two kids and her father was a cop and we wrote her story. So now you can have a fully unscripted automated conversation with Amy which helps people with PTSD basically overcome those fears.

Jenny Aguirre: 7:52

Arash, can you describe to us what exactly is fear where does it stem from is it something natural that we have or is it or how do we know when it's it's it's reached like an abnormal level?

Arash Javanbakht: 8:05

I always say to understand fear, you got to see it in the context it evolved in. So fear is something, a mechanism, a function in almost all biological beings with one goal to keep us safe, keep us alive and keep ours alive. So basically it's a survival mechanism and it has been there to tell us when there is a threat and a danger to our existence or existence of those who are connected to us. And Of course, the brain's evolution is very, very slow, right? And the path of evolution goes through millions of years. to the point that people are studying brains of rats and mice to understand how fear works in my brain. So our relationship basically to more primitive animals is very close when it comes to fear mechanisms. And when it comes to humans, the fears that we were meant to deal with are very different than the fears we are experiencing in the modern life. So 50,000 years ago, 100,000 years ago, the fears and the dangers we were dealing with were mostly physical threats. Natural disasters, a predator attacking me, another human attacking me. So we have learned to be responsive and reactive to those kinds of threats. And that primitive animal brain is still around. And majority of those reactions were supposed to be physical, right? So I had to learn to run away or attack the source of threat. That's why we call it fight and flight system. And that explains our current fears and anxieties. Let's say I'm about to give a public speech, right? I want to talk to class and let's say I have social anxiety or I have fear of public speaking. My heart is pounding, my hands are sweaty, my focus is distracted, and it doesn't make sense. If it is a system that's there to help me, why is it working against me? It is basically reducing my ability to perform. But the thing is, we could see it as a caveman sitting in me reacting to that environment. So to that caveman, I'm in front of a group of humans, and if they don't like me, the next step is that there will be a fight. There's a chance that I will be seriously injured or killed, or they will be seriously injured, or they will exile me, so I have to run or attack. And that's why the whole system is in fight-and-flight mode, and my heart is pounding and preparing me for physical reaction. Now, your next question was when we know this is abnormal. So in the modern world, a lot of times it's a false alarm and abnormal. And we can talk later about how we can even try to readjust the system. But because the anxieties that we are dealing with, the threats we are dealing with are very different, majority of the day-to-day worries that I have are not going to pose a risk of death to me, right? But the fear system sees them as that. And that's why I feel the same anxiety and fear and horror, let's say, in anticipation of a meeting with my boss, as I would in anticipation of meeting with my tribe leader 100,000 years ago that could end in my exile or my killing. So, but when is it abnormal? But fear is abnormal when it causes significant dysfunction or significant distress. And that is how actually we look at any psychiatric symptom. if it is stopping me from being able to function i cannot go to school because of this anxiety i cannot go to work i cannot focus and concentrate i cannot perform in the day-to-day life or interactions with others i'm avoiding a lot of situations that in normal life i would need to go to like i was talking about ptsd patients earlier what is causing significant distress it takes a lot of work for me to be able to go to school and let's say do the things i need to do or be at a party for example then we call it abnormal and that is when we want to address as a like, basically intervene and try to modulate.

Jenny Aguirre: 12:06

Is it that, like a caveman type of brain, right? And now we're kind of stuck with that subconsciously? Is it because we haven't, I guess we're evolving too fast, but not really evolving? Like we're still stuck with that subconsciously?

Arash Javanbakht: 12:20

Excellent question. No, that's a very, very good

Jenny Aguirre: 12:22

I don't know if I'm wording it right.

Arash Javanbakht: 12:24

You are. You know, for a gene change, it takes millions of years for genes to change and gradually things evolve, right? Evolution takes a very, very long time. But look at how our environment and how our culture has changed even over the past 100 or 200 or 300 years ago. So let's say over the 10,000 years we have not biologically changed much but the threats in our environment have significantly tremendously changed my anxieties are now about who is following me or not following me on Instagram and Facebook and TikTok and these things right or somebody is bullying me on the social media that human brain of 100,000 years ago is not equipped to react with them let's say a parallel I can make to this is that when you are dreaming You're just in the middle of this story that you don't understand. You're not in control. Other things are pulling you around. The unconscious brain is writing this story. You're just witnessing the things that are happening to you with confusion. Now imagine when you're awake. That animal brain, the primitive human brain is dreaming and it's confused about what's happening here. I'm in the middle of this group of people and I'm a little bit feeling intimidated and I'm scared of my performance and that cave person, caveman, cavewoman inside of me is seeing it as the threats it can comprehend as a primitive human.

Jenny Aguirre: 13:50

Okay, so that makes sense why I get a little scared every time I have to host an interview.

Arash Javanbakht: 13:57

And you know what? Some of that anxiety actually is helpful. We can talk about when the anxiety is also helpful because if I have no anxiety in anticipation of this conversation, if I have, because anxiety arouses us, keeps us awake and alert and focused. One of the things it does is focuses our attention on the task at hand. If I didn't have any of that, let's say anticipation of this conversation or an exam that I have, I would not have the motivation to prepare. And actually it helps us focus more. But when it goes beyond, we call it an optimal window of arousal. If it goes beyond that optimal window I would not be able to focus.

Jenny Aguirre: 14:44

But it is very, very strange, I do get nervous, but it becomes almost an adrenaline rush in that situation. So I've always thought of like my anxiety taking two routes and it either pushes me to do really well or I just shut down.

Arash Javanbakht: 14:59

That's true. And now you're talking about the optimal window of arousal. And then in this book, I have a chapter, Why We Love To Be Scared. And that's about the same thing that you just said. The adrenaline rush. There's tremendous overlap between fear and excitement brain networks.

Jenny Aguirre: 15:17

Why do people like to get scared?

Arash Javanbakht: 15:20

That actually was a very cool chapter when I was working on this book and writing the book. So I was thinking about why, I mean, people come and pay me to help them overcome their fears and anxieties, but they also go pay to watch a horror movie or go to a haunted house or do the roller coaster, as you mentioned. And there are multiple different facets to it. One facet is what I already mentioned. There's tremendous biological overlap between the fear and excitement systems. And both of them require what? When you're excited and let's say you want to perform optimally in a sports competition or you're afraid both of them you need optimal physical performance optimal focus attention and all of this is sympathetic nervous system that is activated within the body heart rate is going up you feel more alive you feel more attuned you feel more focused and detached from what is out there then there's the amygdala in the brain which is the threat detection part of the brain that also also creates excitement so when you get basically... Now... Part is this overlap. Now you're exciting the system, you have the adrenaline rush, but because you're in control, you are not terrified. And that's why some of us, I like horror movies, there are horror movies that are easy for me to watch, there are horror movies that excite me, and there are horror movies when, historically when I was younger, I was not willing to watch because that was too much, felt too real. A lot felt like I don't have the controls. But here, the knowing that you are in control, you can stop it. Right? You really do not have remote control near you when you're watching a horror movie. So you know you can stop it. But the thing about the roller coaster, which is more terrifying to me, is that when you start the ride, you cannot stop it. So that is a little bit of lack of control. But you have the knowledge there that you know there's so much engineering used here. So that's the knowledge you bring to control and regulate your fear response. The other aspect is the kind of... It's a mindfulness activity. It's a detachment. When you are on that roller coaster, you are not even able to think about anything else or any of your day-to-day normal anxieties or worries or things. And we know mindfulness is a very good way of reducing our tensions and anxieties.

Jenny Aguirre: 17:35

And that's why I feel relaxed after a roller coaster ride.

Arash Javanbakht: 17:40

Absolutely. And then there's an exercise. You said to relax. You exercise the system. Why do you and I go to the gym or work out and exercise? Because this body was designed to go through physical stress on a day-to-day basis. But now we are not doing it. So we are trying to replicate this original environment. Same with the fear. You basically exercise the fear system. In a normal way, you expose your fear system to more real anxieties and fears than, let's say, the conversation I'm going to have with my boss that I'm worried about. So now that kind of exercises the fear system, and that's why a lot of people actually with anxiety do thrill-seeking activities, right? And then you're in charge, and you're in control, and you know you... are you can stop it compared to the anxieties of day-to-day life that I'm not in control. And a couple of more interesting facets are here. Of course, there's a bonding opportunity. You rarely do these things alone, right? We watch a lot of movies alone, but horror movies, we usually want to watch them with our friends. So it's kind of a bonding over emotions. Then it comes to what my dad taught me when I was a kid. We were watching this, basically, the documentary and there were these lions and lion cubs wrestling with each other and biting each other and my dad asks me Arash, why do you think they are doing this? And I was like, well, they're playing. His answer was like, it's beyond playing. They're preparing for their future fights and hunts. So when you're watching a horror movie, at least I am like this, I'm constantly thinking about how I would survive it. I even yell at the actors and actresses sometimes, hey, why didn't you go that way? You should be doing this. You should use that tool. So basically, it's a way of practicing for us to be prepared in dangerous situations. And the final thought is. These kind of fears put fear in its real context. Meaning that if I'm standing on it, I'm talking about myself with my fear of heights, if I'm standing on the edge of Grand Canyon looking below, what I'm seeing, I'm looking at my death. And that is what my fear system was evolved to react. So that's the real fear. Then when I come back from that experience, How much should I worry about that scratch on my car or this payment or the anxieties that we have in day-to-day life? Basically, these experiences remind us and put things in context that, okay, this is what is really scary. This other thing is not.

Jenny Aguirre: 20:15

Yeah. There was something else you brought up, using fear as a motivator.

Arash Javanbakht: 20:22

Fear is basically a signal that tells you, I perceive a threat somewhere. A lot of times you meet people and part of you is like, well, something feels fishy here. Something I don't trust. And that's the animal. And the animal is not always wrong. A lot of times you trust your dog's instincts, right? You trust your dog's sense of smell. And there have been a lot of times most of us have been in a situation that we were in a place or met someone for the first time, we had some gut feeling, and then six months, a year later, we're like, oh, that gut feeling was right and this happened. So when the signal happens, then our job is to look at it and do a logical assessment of how realistic this is. Am I fantasizing? Am I projecting some of my past experiences? Am I projecting some of my prejudices? Am I overshooting because biologically I'm an anxious person? That is the one part of the utility of fear, right? The other part is when I understand how fear works with me, I also understand how others may try to take advantage of my own fears. And I talk about this in the book also. There are always people who are sensing fear. my weaknesses and vulnerabilities in any kind of relationship and then try to take advantage. So when I know how fear system works in me and how those people could try to take advantage of my fears, I can try to handle that. The other part is, as I said earlier, fears, I can use my fears to motivate myself when the motivation is low. Because fear has an energy. Fear like anger, they create energy. And fear and anger actually a lot of times are two sides of the same coin. Another chapter of the book, interestingly, is I'm afraid, so I'm angry. And both of them have energy. So when I'm afraid of something, all those energies that are brought up much easier than I would try to do, then I can utilize that energy and put it in the task that I want. So now how I can use it, let's say I have this grant application that I have to do and I've been dragging my feet and I've been procrastinating, then I remind myself, listen, as an academic, you need this. Your raise is attached to this. Your promotion is attached to this. Look, your colleagues, you have to pay your team, laboratory team members to keep that. So all these fears I'm stirring in myself then gives me the energy and motivation to bring me within that normal window of arousal to be able to do the functioning. The fears we had during the pandemic within the normal limit were the reasons we were okay and we were able to overcome our desires of hanging out with people and partying and going to restaurants to stick within this realm of staying safe and survive. There are more abstract forms of fears and anxieties that can help motivate us. Fear can form our creativities. We have seen it throughout the wars and throughout the history of humanity. I mean, Stephen King's writings are all fear-based, right? So fear is coloring our culture and can motivate what we are doing and what we are creating and other things. Fear of death. We all know one day we will die, right? Now, a reaction to that could be, oh, shoot, I'm going to stay depressed and be sad and give up hope. But another reaction is, okay, now there's this fear. How can I try to have an impact which can be more immortal than myself and pass through time, right? If I do things, let's say the students I teach or this podcast that we are creating, maybe, who knows, at some point after you and I are far gone, somebody may be listening to this. So these are different pathways and ways that fear can help and motivate us, but also we can also learn skills. When I'm afraid of something, when that anxiety helps me go try to find a solution, helps me go find it, like look at all the, not that I'm, supporting it but the whole weapon industry technology what is it coming out of part of it is greed the other part is fear the armies where are they coming from because of the fear of annihilation of the nation has mobilized people and during the big wars or during the world wars we have had most of our biggest technological advancements a lot of these basically like internet came out of the military technology research right so these are the ways fear can either abuse us because then fear can also lead to all the atrocities we are causing right now in the world. People are killing each other in a lot of corners of this world. That is also coming out of fear, leading to anger and basically weaponizing to people, which is that whole other conversation of politics of fear and media and fear and those

Jenny Aguirre: 25:04

Very, very interesting. Really interesting book as well.

Arash Javanbakht: 25:07

And with the book, Name is Afraid, Understanding the Purpose of Fear and Harnessing the Power of Anxiety. So this is basically written... for the public. Science-based but also practical with a lot of examples from my patients and my own life and research experience starts with evolution and fear in the brain, fear in the body, why we love to be scared, creativity, what is bravery? How do you define bravery and how it works in the brain? What are the diseases of fear and anxiety? What does trauma do to people? What is really PTSD? What are the treatments? And then a couple of chapters on meaning and fear and how we can reform basically change the meaning of fear and anxiety how we can use fear to our own advantage and then social media and media and fear and the business of fear and then the politics and fear and how we are very often special these days manipulated our fears are manipulated for the benefit of the politics.

Jenny Aguirre: 26:05

Arash, is there something you would like to share with our young audience that might either not know what path they want to take or that are interested in taking a similar path as yourself?

Arash Javanbakht: 26:17

I would say... Be open to the world. Go explore and learn. If you have some thoughts about what could or could not be an option, go ask as many people as you can. One of the things that helped me a lot was anytime I was thinking about making a decision, I went and asked and asked and asked and asked about from people who are doing this and collect as much data. That's a scientific way. As much data as you can about the path. If you're younger, remember time is on your side, so it's okay to make a couple of mistakes. And follow your, I mean, follow your heart. A lot of people say follow your heart, but then there's like, is my heart being stupid or not? So that's why you basically, once in a while, check it by the compass of other people. Like, okay, other people, wise people that I trust, what would they say? What do they think? Is it too stupid? Because there have been times that I wanted to go a very different direction. I was trained to do brain imaging and fear conditioning research, and then I said, no, hell no, I want to go do the refugees research. It was a huge change. But then some people said, no, it makes sense. It makes your clinician and your skilled in this area. And also look at your talents because there were things my mom wanted me to be. And there are things that my society wants me to be. There are things that I even think I want to be because of those basically inputs. But look at what is in me that helps me be good now. And what are my unique talents? And it is worth risking because every time you make a decision, remember, you're just going to live once.

Jenny Aguirre: 27:48

Arash, where can people find you online?

Arash Javanbakht: 27:52

On Instagram, I a lot of times post very short blips about practical approaches on reducing fear, handling fear and anxiety, specifically in the modern life. So my Instagram is AR, my last name, which is ARJAVANBAKHT. Also, as I said, I've written a ton for the public and I've done a lot of interviews, which are on our lab website, StarcLab.org. Starc is with a C. Starclab.org is where all of that information is also available.

Jenny Aguirre: 28:30

All right. Well, sounds great. Lovely chatting with you. Thank you so much for taking time to be interviewed by myself. I know you have a busy, busy schedule. But yes, thank you so much for joining us.

Arash Javanbakht: 28:41

I appreciate that. Thank you so much. I really enjoyed the conversation and thanks for the important work you're doing.

Jenny Aguirre: 28:46

Thank you. And that's our show. Thanks for listening. Until next time, keep wondering. Ever Wonder from the California Science Center is produced by me, Jenny Aguirre, along with Perry Roth-J ohnson, D Hunter White, and Karen Arroyo. D Hunter White and Liz Roth -Johnson are our editors. Music provided by Michael Nickolas and Pond5. If you're a fan of the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating or review on Apple Podcasts. It really helps other people discover our show. Have a question you've been wondering about? Send us an email or a voice recording to everwonder@californiasciencecenter.org to tell us what you'd like to hear in future episodes.